The statistics that colleges hate to share

Reading the posts of 95% of you people proves why a college education is valuable: you learn how to write and spell! You are also proving the point that the education system is badly broken if you people are walking around with degrees and cannot tell when to use the word there or their. No one seems to know that there is such a word as too and when to use it properly. Punctuation? Forget about it. You do know (not no) that when you misspell a word these little red, squiggly lines (notice how a comma goes between two-not to-adjectives describing the same noun) appear underneath the horrible offense? That is a clue to fix it people. You are showing your ignorance when you do not. I do not care how many degrees you have or where you went; if you cannot construct a proper sentence in your native language I would never hire you.
I got a BA in English and I do not make a lot of money and my degree has nothing to do with my career path, but I have a well-rounded education and have an IQ far higher than any boss I have ever worked for. I could care less about money and never did going to college. It took me 10 years to pay off the loans, but as I predicted, this country's economy is failing and all the rich people's money is going to be taken back and redistributed for the meek will inherit the earth, not the rich scumbags stealing and hoarding wealth. In the end, at least I'll be able to write a book about it.

Two Beefs -

1. Many subjects – especially technical ones involving computers – can be nicely taught via computers. Even the D. of Ed. says online courses are highly effective.
Yet, there is very limited scholarship or grant funds for online courses or certificates (often more useful than degrees for current technology).

2. If you are among the 60% that don't graduate (which doesn't mean that your 4 years of school was worthless) there is NO recognition of the value. One course short of the degree is as worthless as having never gone. Try to go back – even after many years of professional experience – and they want you to pay through the nose in time and money.

CONSIDER:
A – State universities should be in the business of setting and monitoring standards for other providers. If the other providers meet the standards they should be able to award their students a State university degree.

B – We need a BA equivalent to a GED. Maybe a BS as well.

C – Encourage online learning. Support it, supervise it. Let educators package lectures (eg: The Learning Company), have peers certify them and let Students get credit for listening and passing tests or participating in seminars.

A greater percentage of people in our country are going to college than ever before. This may be due in part to the increasingly popular belief that a college degree is a consumer good, as evidenced by the majority of comment here, purchased in exchange for a better salary. This perspective is understandable as the individual student continues to pay an ever increasing price for a diploma.

However, this notion is similar to the idea that customers of a gym should not have to pay for their memberships if they do not get in better shape. Or patients should not have to pay for dental care if they get cavities.

But I digress. The greater proportion of Americans going to college today means that college students are more representative of the population than ever before. A college education was once restricted to the elite. The authors of this article imply that graduation rates, grades, and other "measures" of colleges have lowered in recent years. But, they do not account for the differences in who goes to college these days.

As to the percentage of students graduating withing 4 years, that is an arcane idea coming from the magical times when students could go to college full time without simultaneously holding down a job or raising children. The majority of students today are non-traditional. Graduating in six years is much more the norm. It's a reflection of our society, of the competing time demands of today's students.

I agree that colleges need to be accountable because of the expense. I don't agree that the measures proposed in the article are of any use in achieving that goal.

Can someone tell me why this article uses graduation rates as a key criteria for assessing a successful college? In my estimation after 4 years of sliding by at a public institution, then 2 years of serious graduate work, then 2 years of serving as an admin. at a university one of the key issues I've seen is the issue of GRADE INFLATION, including the catering to helicopter parents, graduating lackluster students that shouldn't be attending college anyway, and lack of real world preparation. There are so many more issues to EXAMINE rather than graduation rate. Do you want your kid to go to a school where faculty and staff will value your investment and your student's education – of course. But don't just leave it to graduation rates. This will then put higher education's focus on GRADUATING STUDENTS, RATHER THAN EDUCATING THEM. If they can't make the cut, better for the school, better for higher education, better for the parent to know, and better for the student to take it seriously or find a new calling.

College is a necessary prerequisite for any professional job. While college does not generally teach one precisely how to perform a specific job, it requires discipline to stick to it and finish a four year degree. Many cannot quite bring themselves to do it and I do not want them working for me.

Yes, there is a lot of drinking, slacking off, watching TV, etc for most college students. However, real colleges do require a lot of writing and professors require that you actually show up to class or receive a lower grade. College is not for everyone and it is not necessary for many non-professional, but respectable and decent paying middle class jobs.

I am scientist and there is no way that I would be one without college (and grad school). Having a science degree, I do actually use my college education on a daily basis. Furthermore, I think that there are only a few exceptional individuals out there (if any) making contributions to science without a college education. Not to leave out the liberal arts, my wife was an English major at a state school and she is very well compensated because she writes good and stuff, unlike me : )

Men, this is the reason we all need to stay focused on school and not women while in college. Women GENERALLY tend to only want what they want so when they see success in a man, they're play "little Ms. Innocent" to hook you into their traps. Regardless of where you go to school, get a degree that's applicable to the real world. Don't let a woman tell you what's right for you. Only you only know what's right for you. Look up Tom Leykis guys and get his advice. Because of him, I'm on track with school and not letting any woman tell me what I need or what they think my short comings are. Don't get suckered into thinking you won't become more that what you are right now. I'm a 2nd generation American who made some mistakes, but I'm not realizing what the value of an education can mean to me.

MEN BE GOOD AT WHATEVER IT IS YOU DO TO BECOME THE BEST AT WHAT YOU DO TO BECOME SUCCESSFUL

Some Tom Leykis wisdom for everyone here.

What % of students graduate in 4 years?

What % of graduates are fully employed in their field within a year of graduation? Perhap 6 mos, and 3 mos too?

What % of graduates go on to get additional degrees?

Average income of graduates? Within 12 mos of graduating.

I would like to send my kids out of the country. Even as a non-resident tutition for instance at McGill in Montreal, Quebec is only $20k – Canadian. In addition to an inexpensive but high quality education they will get critical life experience in another country which will be in key assest in an ever increasing global economy.

Colleges should, as the article mentions, provide a TON more information than they currently do. When you're sinking $20,000 – $50,000 a year, you need to be informed. The worth of the degree is an absolute gamble. I'm sure families would be much more willing to invest were they informed. Private colleges are more of a scheme than a benefit (non-ivy league schools at least).

@Richard P, the point of the story is that now a lot of those "professional" jobs are filled, and the people with $100k degrees are fighting with people who never went to college for less qualification-heavy jobs. In my experience with hiring, a college degree is hardly a guarantee of intelligence or competence anymore–every over-privileged suburban kid goes to college, even the dumb and lazy ones. I'll take a hard-working high school graduate 22yr old with 4 years real-world life experience over a 22yr old fresh out of college any day.

There are fairly simple reasons why there are huge nunbers of, say, BA's in English working at Burger King vs BS graduates in Chemistry doing the same thing.

A native-born American, to an English speaking couple, practices "English," for something like 18 years before he matriculates.

A native-born American, to an English speaking couple, practices "the scientific method," for somthing like 0 minutes before she matriculates.

Some lucky ones – as I was – began practicing science as a profession whilst still in high school, and I therefore found Chemistry to be "easy, and rewarding."

I have been rewarded with plentiful, challenging work for more than 20 years, because I challenged myself in a complex field that, literally, was not open to everyone – a certain level of perserverence and intellect is required (to say nothing of objectivity).

Our students choose the easy way out (even at $50K per year in tuition and even more in lost opportunity) and then lament the absence of jobs on the other side. The time for that analysis is BEFORE one accepts a career path – not after that path has failed.

Extra onions, no lettuce, please, Mr. Joyce.

a lot of colleges bring in freshmen but granting large amounts of FASA,,but come nest year you dont quilify for the same amount even though your parents income didnt change. this trick kids into coming and than leave them hanging

College is little more than a "holding tank" for people who are legal adults but too immature to be responsible members of society. It's a place where you binge drink, watch TV, and basically not do anything useful for four, five, six years…however long it takes to realize 1)Hey! I need money; 2)OMG, dad's not going to pay me forever; 3)Maybe I shouldn't pass out drunk/high more than four nights a week.

If you don't know how to read, write, and teach yourself what you need to know by the time you get to college, it's already over. And for every job in the world, what you really need to know to do it well isn't taught in any college course.

Colleges are expensive because administrators have confused the real role of a college (to keep the kids occupied and maybe teach a few of them some math) with a glamor contest: who has the biggest student union building? The shiniest swimming facility? The greatest landscaping? Robotic laundry machines in all the dorms? Five flat screen TVs in every classroom? And, most importantly, the biggest "development office" staffed with PR professionals to remind alumni of how much they owe the college for getting them to where they are today…as in, maybe a cool $200 mil for a new Comparative Literature building, complete with cappuccino bar and climbing wall.

The value of a college degree is tremendous. Yes, some college students compete for the same jobs as young adults who never attended college, however there are many more professional jobs (and well paying I might add) that are selective to only college graduates. It is ridic to hear the argument that a college degree may not be necessary.

Indeed, there is no logic as to why a degree in arts should cost so much! Even with Engineering, where the number of under-quality graduates keep increasing every year, you will have to notice the 'businesses' that these colleges have become. Life's lessons are always hard and it is better that they are learnt the hard way.

Destination Infinity

I graduated from Stephens in May and had a great job starting in June. With scholarships and financial aid I barely paid anything to attend, and graduated in four years while also studying abroad one semester.

A Teacher says:

"Hook a business major and you could be the next Mrs. Millionaire!"

Hook a business major and you could also be the next Ms. Bankrupt. Check the statistics some time on starting businesses. Or, for that matter, the number of millionaires and their backgrounds. It's not that hard to find.

Of course, understanding that would require a sense of numeracy, the willingness to do basic research, and critical thinking. Which, it seems, that B.A. and MS in education failed to provide.

And the truth is, a very large proportion of college courses aren't about critical thinking. They're about learning the parrot the views of an authority figure, who will punish those who fail to do so. Numeracy is not insisted on, even though it's fundamental to any reasonable definition of a good education. Nor is scientific literacy, in a society driven by science.

The value of an education as education, in many colleges, stinks. The value of that education as a financial investment is also questionable, in too many cases. Even as prices continue to rise, as they have for a long time, faster than the rate of inflation.

It's way past time that stopped. Far too many people have taken on far too much debt, to a point that changes their subsequent lives for the worse – and received very little of real value in return.

The scale and consequences are a swindle worthy of anything on Wall Street. It should be a scandal.

Community colleges are, in many ways, a better investment in America's future – and a better investment in many of our universities' current students.

For those that demand college degrees, more information about things like the college environment (graduation rates are one proxy), subsequent performance of graduates, scores on standardized tests for analytical ability, etc. should be a minimum bar for colleges' ethical conduct. Percentage of funds spent on research vs. teaching vs. administration vs. physical overhead would also be an excellent thing to provide. Not just because it shows up the administratively bloated, but ask a London School of Economics grad sometime about the real quality of the teaching.

Ultimately, 3rd party surveys of students are also going to become part of this equation. Some magazines already compile rankings, despite fierce resistance. Piecemeal attempts have also been made at many colleges to compile surveys, but those have also been resisted. As family decisions sharpen, the pressure to allow them, and standardize them, will grow.

It's too bad that colleges don't have access to GRE/GMAT/LSAT scores for graduates, since they offer information that helps gauge both skills and seriousness in graduates.

All of you borrowing 100K to get your masters in acting (just an example) …Life will be very difficult for all of you, you're going to make 25 – 35k / year, and that's when you are working, not waiting on tables at the diner.

Education is an investment in yourself, it can be like buying at an IPO, you just don't know which way it's going to go.

The price of college has increased 7-9% per year since at least the early eighties.
College is unaffordable to most because of the cost year over year increase.
Did your parents get a 7-9% raise every year?
When the cost of something increases buy more than the the change in real wages something has to give.
We have the perfect example in front of us. The price of home increased my more than the increse in real wages, and what happened next, the price of homes came down.

Another point; in tution increased 7-9% per year where did the money go. teachers didn't get it, rent didn't change, Where did the money go. Get your spread sheet out and do the math. If a number increases every year 7% for 29 years…

Interesting range of viewpoints.

And here are my own – warning, contains 75% original content:

1. Companies want people with degrees. Volunteerism does nothing except give it away for free. If you have a family to put food on, you can't do it all for free unless everyone else does too. And this is not a "free market", pardon the pun.

2. No argument on high schools being inferior…

3. More Indians and Chinese are _____. That's partly because their combined population is only ten times higher than America's. (300,000,000 in America vs 3 billion in China+India.)

4. Grades are supposed to show the effort one puts in. Some of us do work damn hard to get good grades, which in turn should mean an easier time to get a job that bloody well pays for everything.

5. Income/inflation ratio has shown a decrease in the dollar's purchasing power for decades. Enough graphs, charts, and even raw numbers are freely available and from obvious sources too. In short, there are plenty of times when loans are necessary for necessities to begin with.

6. FREE IS NOT A BUSINESS METHOD. I suspect everyone using the new F-word are a bunch of Linux hosers, who freely take from open source and give nothing back, and think the same can be applied to all in life. See point #1 for more.

7. It is fundamentally stupid to invest obscene amounts of money into a field being offshored or being devalued. It's that pesky cost of living vs income argument again…

8. I value education. I couldn't get educated in grade school because of the bullying, taunts, beatings, and the other **** I endured on a daily basis. Anybody who blames me for the state of education can shove it. The fact my grades skyrocketed after graduating high school (1991) only shows that a proper, conducive venue for learning really does pay off. Our media, when not our educational system, don't value people being educated. Such people are made fun of.

9. Conversely, more and more people do not give a d*** about education because there's no incentive — if CEOs can whine that lesser pay = lesser interest and that makes the front page of the poorly edited newspaper, then the working class has the same right to scream the same thing. THAT might be why students are caring less and less. No real jobs to look forward to that put what they are apparently not learning into practice.

10. Whatever. As if anything's going to change in this life.

You're using the AEI as your "proof"?

That doesn't help your credibility in any way, you know.

This article looks at college education simply as an investment. The results are measured in salary of job obtained after graduation. If you ask the question that whether there is an "economical" reason to attend college, the answer is always no especially it is not a professional school such as engineering or medical.

However, you can make the same argument for high school education as well. In fact, why do we need secondary or elementary school education at all ? Economically, you are much better off if you start a kid working when he or she is 5 years old.

The reasons for parents' complaints about colleges are twofold:
(1) They have to paid for their kids' college education. From elementary to high school, the government pays for it (through mandatory taxation).
(2) They don't have to pay attention to what their kids are studying. It is almost the same for everyone through high school. Now, the kids have to make choices and parents don't know how to work with their kids to make the right one.

Looking at colleges through the lense of $$$$ is simply short-sighted. What a college education gives you is a chance to compete with other college graduates in the global job market. Not all kids will be successful in making a lot of money in return. It depends on a lot of factors such as the state of various job markets of various skill sets. If your only measure is by economic return, sending your kids to college is like betting on horses. Either don't gamble or else don't complain when you lose your bet.

Instead, every parent should try to help their kids to succeed in whatever measures. You should try to find the right school for your kids. Don't blame the school, professors, or your kids if things does not turn out as you expected.

This whole article breaks down to mostly one thing and one thing only, the vast majority of people in this nation having a sense of entitlement. This is largely being helped out by our over extending government and all of their bailouts. Why should people want to work, what is their incentive? Take on a house you can't afford, the government will help you. Don't want to get an education, don't worry the government has food stamps and welfare programs. What ever happened to doing something on your own. As a recent college graduate, i was able to obtain scholarships and a job on my own. This is the single biggest accomplishment of my life thus far. I for one am willing to say that i do not need nor do i want any sort of hand out.

To the teacher who equates attention to dollar signs with shallowness:

Who says you have to pay for a good education? Read books on your own, take classes in your free time after you have found a job, form groups with others who have your interests and learn as a group. You don't have to "invest" to learn.

Also, volunteering is free!!

The reality is – IT IS STUPID TO BORROW FOR A DEGREE THAT WON'T HELP THE GRADUATE GET A JOB!!!! I'm sorry if you think that's shallow – you're simply wrong. Actually it's shallow to borrow money from society, private lenders, or relatives without the knowledge that you will be able to pay them back. Especially when the purpose is "investing in yourself" and there are many (free) ways to give back. If you want to use money to give back, manage your finances well and write checks to your favorite charities.

As an educator, I am unnerved by the comments below about the stupidity of having an expensive education for a low paying job. In my case (and the case of my colleagues at the university and in my current job), I earned a four year degree in my subject area followed by a MS in education. And, yes, my parents helped to pay for my college and grad school. They do not consider this a poor invest me and neither do I. Looking at a college degree in terms of dollar signs shows how shallow our nation has become. I was going to be a lawyer, but I wanted to actually make a difference.

There are too many people who go to college to find a wealthy spouse. Hook a business major and you could be the next Mrs. Millionaire! Students need to start taking college seriously. Statistics are collected to show 6 year graduation rates in four year colleges. This is stupid. There needs to be more to getting into school than extracurricular activities (I know someone who got into State U first in our high school class even though she was a mediocre student but was class president and head cheerleader among other things). Students need to be evaluated on rigor, not fluff.

As a semi-recent grad, I was told the job statistics in my department (i.e. what percentage have jobs in one year). It was not great. I wish that all schools within universities gave this information as freely as mine did. I also believe in internships as a part of the curriculum. Every student should be required to work in the field for at least one semester before a degree is earned. This gives both work experience on the resume and an opportunity to see what one is really getting into.

People need to stop seeing the world in terms of dollar signs and find what is really suited for them.

I have taught at 3 different public universities for 25 years now (and worked for 6 years in industry, and actively consult with industry), and have seen a gradual decline in student abilities and desire to learn over the years. There seems to be a sense of entitlement amongst the majority of students, that they are “owed” a college degree and a “life”. For this I blame us Baby Boomer parents who: 1) expected little of their kids; and 2) were looking for baby sitters as opposed to quality K-12 public education. I think it is safe to say a typical college education today is about equivalent to a good college-prep high school education of 1970. Who is to blame? Everyone….our society that doesn’t value a general education, particularly if it conflicts with their personal beliefs; Schools of Educations at universities that crank out teachers who don’t seem to know very much; university administrations populated by “failed” professors (the general public might be surprised to learn just how many university administrators there are and what their salaries are compared to the average professor); university alumni that only care about their school’s football team’s prowess; a society that can’t seem to provide anything else meaningful for 18-22 year-olds to do…..I could go on and on. So do I have any solutions? Maybe one thing that could help is to increase the age that kids go to college to 20 or 21, and then also provide something useful for them to do before hand. Having said all that, it is still possible for any motivated, reasonably intelligent, kid who wants to get a good college education can do so at most schools. Now whether even that is worth the money that some schools charge, I am not sure. From my experience, the top 25% of the faculty at most universities could be highly successful at other careers and in fact have other careers as faculty members (authors, inventors, expert witnesses, consultants, etc.). I personally enjoy young people and get my kicks from seeing them go on and succeed in life. Our problems were a long term in the making and there are no easy solutions….but no time like the present to start working on them.

College is an investment and should be viewed as any other investment. Is the money you spend going give you a reasonable chance to increase your earnings potential, and if so, by how much? If the potential rate of return is too low, you should not go. Too often people just assume college is right for everyone, no matter what, and the more expensive the better. Don't forget the opportunity cost of working for years instead of going to college. And the extra two years that many seem to need to complete a 4 year degree may be looked at unfavaorably by a potential employeer. Not to mention the lost earnings of two extra years walking the halls.

And I saw way too many friends jump from major to major only to end up needing 6 years to finish and get jobs that were offered to people with several majors. The reality is that many employers are willing to hire people with various majors so students need to know to stick it out, and that all majors have a few hard classes required.

I've been a student for the better part of the last decade because I'm good at it and I can find money where most people can't. I've experienced state schools, a service academy, and a private one, and I have to say you are asking all the wrong questions or at least, you are asking the questions from the wrong motivations. The two major assumptions I've seen in the comments and the article is that college is job training and that any college sees the student as anything more than a number. If you haven't been kicking your kid's butt to succeed in high school, you can't just throw money at a college and expect them to fix your failure because they could not care less if your kid drops out after two years. Colleges, every one I've attended at least, are businesses and act as you would expect. They profit by keeping your kid there six years and you cannot trust the administration to tell you the truth about how long it will take to graduate because there is no accountability for those promises. Your kid is responsible for keeping himself on the proper academic track. You're paying for 18 credits if your kid is full time and you're asking for another year of tuition if you aren't making the kid take all eighteen. In this manner it is possible to get out in four years with a useful degree and one that enriches your life – you can have your job and an education too but you need to be college material and you need to work hard. It is true that lower tier colleges have to offer remedial classes in algebra and things in order to get the lowest performing students up to snuff, but when the only things average Americans support less than gay marriage are pay raises for teachers, you have to understand that the people you want to teach your kids figured out a long time ago that they can't afford to pay for the teaching credentials by getting a teaching job. Clearly, it doesn't apply to all teachers, but it applies to a LOT of gifted people who used to want to be teachers. Any college can provide you with the tools to succeed but like the one professor said in his comment on here, it takes good students too. If you think your kid knows what's good for him, log onto ratemyprofessor.com and marvel that "easiness" is a quality which garners a rated professor a higher score. Check out the comments too if you need to be depressed further. Congratulations if your kid is in the 1% that says a professor was hard but fair. He probably didn't need college but he's going to use it to build you a wing on his house. Winners are practitioners of excellence, introduce your child to the habit early and you won't have to worry about the cost of college or them getting a job.

There are really three reasons why there is a glut of graduates in non-technical fields.

The first, which has been mentioned, is that the government subsidized so many loans and grants. This gave a lot of otherwise uninspired and unprepossessing students incentive to go to college rather than work.

Second, a lot of the semi-skilled and unskilled jobs that paid relatively well (e.g., in manufacturing) no longer exist. That work has been largely outsourced. So, the young people who might've taken those jobs are instead looking at a choice between college, working in Wal-Mart or Mickey D's, or joining the military. Guess what most of them choose.

Third, and perhaps most relevant of all, employers see degrees as a cheap way of screening applicants. I can't begin to tell you how many times I've been interviewed by people who simply didn't know what they were doing. And I'm talking about at least one who interviewed me for a position that I was offered!

College was once only for the wealthy. Everyone else went to work and did so until they died or wore out. Now, it is assumed that everyone should be college educated. This is very expensive. It is not an efficient use of our resources.
We need to promote excellence in our lower grades by separating those who have intellectual capacity and those who are there taking up space. The high achievers should move on to more advanced work and pushed hard. Get rid of the slackers and you will improve education dramatically. If you don't like it, kick the kid in the head until s/he improves.

We have too many slots in higher education. Colleges are in the business of churning out students rather than educating. Graduation should never be 100%, but rather the percentage of students that really are educated to a high degree. This would probably be 60-70%.

We really have turned into a fat and lazy society in so many ways. We are all entitled to our success, aren't we?

Why are we looking at six-year graduation rates for FOUR year colleges? I graduated in 3 1/2 years and my two oldest children graduated at 4 years. It may have helped them along to know that the financial support ended at the end of the 4th year.

Why are American schools so frickin' expensive? 50k a year? That's outrageous!

"Many experts are even questioning the value of a college degree in an economy where B.A.s are competing, often unsuccessfully, with high school graduates"

Are they questioning the value of a degree, or the value of humanities/social science degrees, which for the most part have always been worthless, except as a prereq for grad school? The engineers and RNs don't seem to be having trouble finding jobs.

As an ex-college prof (including dept head), I found that the folks in my dept (EE) were virtually all multi-talented. They built planes, houses, rebuilt cars, designed comm systems, etc. In other words, they actually had the ability to things other than teach. And – most important – virtually all held productive positions in industry either before or after their university tenure. Now,let's talk about lib arts profs – and we can wonder why the majority are liberal.

TPF – If a student is going to a school where tuition is $50k a year plus another $10-20k per year for room and board, and then takes 5 years to complete and all along has the plan to become a teacher, WHERE ARE THE PARENTS? The parents should step in and tell their child NO. The real problem here is the fact that current college students have a sense of entitlement and no sense about the value of a dollar. You can look no further than shows like "Sweet 16" and all those other terrible reality shows about teenagers who have their parents wrapped around their little finger. That type of an attitude started in the the upper echelons of society and through the beautiful mentality of "Keeping up with the Jones'," has permeated through the ranks all the way down to the middle and lower-middle class. There needs to be a paradigm shift. When public institutions make the conscious decision to turn college campuses into resort day spas, we have a serious disconnect from reality here. College is where these students are supposed to be learning about the real world and preparing for their fast-approaching careers, not where they learn to be the next "Housewife/husband of Orange County".

The new economic reality is that in many cases a college education is no longer cost effective. For instance, certain professions (such as teachers and social workers) have a high education expectation combined with low compensation. In these occupations there is a real danger that a student will overspend on their education. This is especially true if the student is borrowing to pay for their education. If this bubble bursts, many of these students will face a lifetime of debt burden with a lower than average income. Furthermore, these professions will face a shortage of people willing to take the standard of living "hit" necessary to engage in one of these occupations. Probably the worst waste of money today is to prepare for a low paying profession with an expensive ivy league education.

College education was never intended to be a training ground for careers or jobs. If what you want is a skill you can get a job using, then go to trade school. College education is intended for those who want to learn about the world and maybe develop deep knowledge and skills in some area of interest (known as a major).

What seems to have happened in that the kinds of jobs available in the heyday of the oil-based economy demanded a background in a culture of science and technology that couldn't be gained from a HS education, so people were encouraged to go to college. As the oil-based civilization comes to an end and we face a steadily contracting economy, people may once more go to college for enjoyment, not for a job, that is if they can afford it, while the great majority of people will settle for maybe high school and a trade because 90 percent of the jobs will be drudge jobs in things like farming and ditch digging.

As a college junior, this is the kind of article that really scares me. We all put in the time and effort to make the grades so that we can succeed and become well rounded individuals. Unfortunately, a lot of the course load I am now faced with doesn't interest me so I'm working through it just to get done. Im "chasing it," that piece of paper and frame so I can go out into the world and be free to wander knowing I paid my dues at least on the undergrad level. But now, as a burnt out third year student who's transfered to the university closest to home to save some dough, the only reason I'm finishing is to please the rents. The worst part is, I don't see this investment of time and money paying off anytime in the near future.

I'm fortunate enough to have a good federal job as a beach lifeguard in the summer, a career field that draws college students. At the moment, I am a twenty year old supervising two college grads in their mid to late twenties. Both having graduated from "better" or at least more competitive schools than the one I attend, but here I am in charge of their work because I stuck with the government job over the past few summers instead of traveling. What does all this mean for me, should I stay the course and finish school or cut and run and move to costa rica and teach surf lessons? At the moment, the latter looks like a safer bet than the former because at least I know what to expect. I'm not sure what's going to happen the next few years but I know it's a bleak time for those of us at the end of our undergraduate study.

As a recent graduate I can tell you the three real issues with education. Firstly, the foundation isn't there – high schools aren't teaching anything. I failed high school math because of the school I went to for elementary school, the teacher told my mother this. It didn't help that she was more concerned with finishing the textbook than whether we were learning.
Secondly, There is a divide between teacher education and every one else. In the four and a half years I took classes I never once had a non-general education class with an teacher licensure student. I'd be willing to bet someone out of the last 4 graduating classes was hired as an English teacher or a geography teacher. Instead they take courses in the education department.
Finally, general education courses undermine education and they are defended as providing "a more rounded education." Isn't that great. I'm totally happy knowing that I got "a more rounded education." I don't really have a problem with the idea of gen ed courses but lets look at the application of said idea. I took 2 years of linguisitic courses that covered about 90% of the same basic material because students of any major were supposed to be able to take them.
I can safely say the root of these problems is over-simplification. Education is a privilege not a right. It ought to be hard and people need to fail.

Just look at how many self-described college graduates in these comments are unable to spell, punctuate, and form complete sentences.

People who are unschooled tend to be aware of their limitations, so they have a bit of the wisdom of Socrates, who at least knew that he was ignorant. College graduates, on the other hand, can't get enough of telling you how edumacated they are, in contrast to the allegedly ignorant masses.

I took a BA in Anthropology. I never had any illusion that I would actually practice in that field and it was quite irrelevant to my current career. But I'm glad I went to state university after all. I always had my professors' office hours all to myself, and I had plenty of free time to exercise and play the guitar.

Maybe if we just issued a Ph.D. to every baby at birth, we could get on with the business of actual education.

What exactly is it that we want from college educated people? In a word, I would think "sophistication" would be one thing. That would include exposure to a body of knowledge that would guarantee that such a college graduate would be comfortable around other educated people and could hold his own in a wide ranging conversation. Don't require that in your average insurance salesman? Then why did he bother going to a four year college? If you don't need sophistication, you probably don't need college. Go to a vocational school if you don't want to know about Milton and biology. You can still become a millionaire by learning the rudiments of electricity at a local tech school. I won't invite you to my parties, but I'll respect your ability to fix my lights.

Simple Solution:

Fire all the current PhDs and teaching staff (they are the lowest performers in their field anyway).

Hire all the retiring baby-boomers who have been out in the real world doing real jobs.

After three degrees and working in the real world for 40 years…the old saying is true: Those who can do, those who can not, TEACH. Ninety percent of my teachers had no clue what the real world was like…the really good ones were the ones who retired after a successful career and decided to "give back" by teaching.

So think about it parents. Who do you want teaching your kids, some academic that never worked in the real world or a seasoned veteran from reality? Find schools who have a large population retired successful people.

From the perspective of an employer:

If you go to college to enhance your career and financially succeed in your life then my advice is survey the CALIBER of the professionals your prospective college institution is generating.

In my industry, for many instances, I have dealt with many new graduates without success. I have worked with “professionals” that does not have enough knowledge of basic aspect of their roles and responsibility, neither after a decent training. What exactly makes a professional being capable of making reasonable rationalization and reliable decisions? Certainly it is not the name of the college. I have realized that over the last 10-15 years or so…

Besides college, we, along with our kids, should try to push really hard to get the most of the college education that you can afford. Finding a good one is tricky, but do not get fooled by Marketing and dumb surveys.

Most importantly, make sure you follow your instincts when choosing your career, what do you what to accomplish, and what you do want to be immersed within the next 30 years ahead in your life, at least 40 hours a week. Ask a professional, what is really essential to boost your career development and give you and edge, some leverage to win a very competitive global market. Then look for an institution that can provide that, but do not pay too much attention to the price tag – You may be surprised.

I have witnessed many sons and daughters of friends of mine going to college without any clue about their professional inspirations. By the end of their college, they ended up with huge bills, a wide knowledge of nothing, and yet unable to write up a decent resume. Let alone being fully functional in a working environment, in which without skills and essential knowledge can be really detrimental to the whole society.

The cost of a college education has exploded since the Federal government began pumping huge sums of money into grants, scholarships and subsidized loans. As with any such intervention on this scale the government has created disincentives, skewed incentives and inelastic pricing (or more accurately inflation).

The days of paying for college with a summer job are long over precisely because the government in its infinite wisdom decided that every student should attend a four year university, a right of attendance in fact.

The parallels with medicine are striking and the only reasonable solution is so simple it is beyond the grasp of Statists, stop subsidizing college tuition and in short order costs will plummet.

Directing all high school grads into four year universities with subsidies is a terrible misallocation of resources as evidenced by highly indebted grads who are stuck in low wage service sector jobs. Debt slaves for life through no fault of their own.

No single stat is going to do justice, but given that we consider college education as an "investment" of sort, perhaps looking at short- and long-term "returns" might be appropriate, i.e. average salary of graduates in 5, 10, 15, and 20 years, or a ratio of average salary compared to average salary of college grads.

Information like 6 year graduation rates, student placement and so forth, do not answer the most important question: Will my son or daughter graduate and get a decent job with their degree?

I am college professor and am asked frequently, what % of your graduates get into medical school?

My answer is, every year some of our graduates get into medical school. Our program prepares them for it well. However, it also depends on the student. A student who makes C average in our program is not going to get in. Does that mean our program is bad? Of course not. It takes a good college AND good students!

Generally, I'll say that the ability to perform "in the real world" is not remotely related to a college education. There are skilled positions however, where college educations are helpful. Science is one of those. This doesn't mean however that it is required. I personally have learned food microbiology on my own independent studies. My 17 year old son is more well classically educated by his own motivation than probably 90% of college graduates. He has his first year of college money saved on his own volition. Yet my 20 year old son has chosen the long and winding road of starting at the bottom and trying to work his way up by learning OTJ. He is not cut out for college and would definitely have failed (takes after his dad – who quit after 1 year).

The value is only there if that is the environment that you best learn.

Take a look at Colleges That Change Lives-well worth it! http://www.ctcl.org/

I'll tell you what I could stand to know LESS about; diversity and study abroad. I'd like to gain a better sense of just how much "indoctrination" (in terms of political agenda) I'm paying for, bu I suppose that's too hard to quantify.

Average salary initially and after 10 years and average time it takes to get hired, percentage currently unemployed, percentage working in their field of study.

University is beneficial depending on your major (Sciences, Engineering and Finance), otherwise it is just an enriching cultural and social experience. Not everyone can afford such an experience or even wants it and those people should be directed to a vocation or technical school and save money, time and social pressure.

In 15 years of working professionally and making a very good living, I found the college I attended only helped in my first job, and on subsequent interviews it was not mentioned, only my work experience was relevant.

All of the people I know that spent a lot of money on private schools never got a financial return on their investment, unless they took a very stressful, no work life balance position.

I just started at a new College. It has a 100% acceptance rate, and a 50+ % dropout rate. I actually chose my school for this reason.

Its an art school, with major connections to major entertainment and art industry clientele. From Pixar to Polo.

I like my school because it differs from the rest. Most colleges are theoretical in their knowledge. Whereas mine teaches you a skill and then shows you how to apply said skill in the real world. Whether you are an entrepreneur or working for a company, you are going to learn how to apply what you have learned.

Because of this, most people dont want to do the work required, and wind up leaving. However that leaves only the best and most competitive students. I think that if more colleges were like this, we wouldnt be having the problems we have now

First of all, I find it so unrealistic for students to expect their parents to flip the bill on their college education. With this economy, it is a challenge enough for mom and dad to pay their mortgage, expenses, etc. plus cover junior's tuition bill.

A lot of students want to have a good time-four years of the good life at their folks expense. Now, not all students are that way, but many are. It is a disgrace. They should earn scholarships and find a way to become self-sufficient because once they graduate, they will be out in the real world, not a college, city within a city kind of setting. Many graduates are moving back home with their parents, they can't find jobs.

As for academics, the fine arts, philosophy, liberal arts major is good if you are doing it for the passion with no paycheck in mind. These fields are not "hot career" trends. A skilled trade or vocation is becoming more favorable. So is entrepreneurship as corporate america does not guarantee job security.

Colleges need to be upfront on their student success rates, costs of attendance (all fees) and financial aid. Online colleges are for the most part a joke, there is no interaction and the tuition for many of these programs is outrageous. Seriously, if I could start over, I would have went straight out of high school to a trade apprentice program and forget the the university stuff altogether.

What's sad is that a college education is being tied to future employment and economic rewards. Institutes of Higher Education were created to nuture and educate better human beings and to improve society- not develop better employees. You were meant to learn history, literature, math and science in order to realize a better future and hopefully avoid the mistakes of the past.

Its time to stop equating a college degree with a financial payoff when the possibility of inspiring another Monet, Einstein or Ghandi is so much more rewarding for humanity. The world already has enough Madoff's and Sanford's afterall. Perhaps we should return closer to these foundations and less towards financial rewards…we already know from history where the road of financial excess and exploitation leads.

I agree with EP's comment that "hard work and commitment make you a good employee but I do not agree with the comment that "a college degree doesn't make you a better employee." One must be willing to work hard and willing to learn. Sometimes the things needed to be learned would take a long time to do so by just working and therefore a college education is very useful in order to get ahead and therefore more of an asset to a company. I think the industry one decides to go into is the governing factor on rather or not a college education is needed. If your going to go into underwater basket weaving as a career, than an education in medicine is not going to help!! I decided to go into the energy industry and I am majoring in engineering and have had no problems with finding a job. I have acquired in three years the knowledge that has taken individuals in situations similar to EP's , that is, those who are not college educated but are hard working, bright, and successful, their entire careers to attain. I am a hard worker and willing to learn and I used college as a "tool", metaphorically speaking, and not as a guarantee to a successful career.

America has produced to many MBA's and Art graduates and not enough technical, medical, and education degrees in the last several years which is one reason why the former have a hard time findings jobs "Supply and demand people!" Also, it is why America's medical, educational, and infrastructure sectors are deteriorating.

Juan, Birmingham, AL
I don't have a college degree and I think most people DO NOT need to go to college to make a living. Most can go to vocational school to learn a trade and leave college education to people who still have not grown up.
For your information, I've earned my trade in the Navy and now work in a place where I averages over 120K per year working only 14 days per month. Not bad for a non-college graduate don't you think?

Good article, if more parents are able to communicate this information to their kids and start choosing community/vocational colleges, the prices of these superbs colleges with high dropouts rates will start coming down.

I quit school in grade ten. I have post secondary education but only in those areas that have a potential to make me money. I have my own consulting company and I make more money per year than any three university grads I know. That is not to say that a degree is not worth it, but it is not that only way to have a successful life, financially speaking.

This college vs no college debate is a little too simplistic. There are technical jobs out there that actually do require degrees, mine for instance as a physician. Obviously without the degrees I could not work as such. In the technical arena I think college is necessary. Go try to be an electrical engineer without one. As far as more general studies degrees, not so much. Most of these degrees are minimum competency demonstrations. A person who manages a 4.0 in whatever shows that he/she has the combo of intelligence/drive to achieve this. This is in no way a guarantee but is an indicator. People can often times achieve this through work history also. If your the guy who graduates with a 2.0 in communications then your probably better off not telling anyone you went to college.

If you have a college degree or not get ready to compete in the global economy Americans. The Indians and Chinese are graduating at record numbers and learning second languages in preparation to take and compete for that American dream. The days of the fat blue collar jobs are over my friends. You are a commodity to the companies and the college degree is just another bell or whistle that may give you access to a little bit more money with a bit better job.

Ironically, the one statistic that would be very valuable is not only impossible to pick out of this article, it's not clear at collegeresults.com.

That is simply, what percentage of the students who finish college graduate within 6 years? There's a huge number of students who start and then drop out after one or two years or, as one of the previous commenters pointed out, leave for another college, and are included in the not graduated stats.

I just want to say one thing and that is if this is you, "…Searching for that perfect college for your child," You need to stop! your child in not a child if s/he is ready to go to college. s/he should decide what college or no college at all. Many people push their kids to go to college but they may not be ready for it. Stop pushing them and stop adding to the statistics, let them decide!

Variables? Purpose? Clientele? Jobs? Salaries? Mobility? Parents? The primary purpose of college should be to enhance one’s education… to grow intellectually. It is to give time for an individual to mature. Those who go to college to “get a job” will be sadly disappointed… try a trade school; they’ll probably make more money. College graduates do not have the knowledge or experience to succeed at any job… that comes with on-the-job training and experience. Graduation rates? I would suppose that most publicly supported schools have low rates; shouldn’t schools “weed out” those who don’t have the temperament. Isn’t that the primary value of a degree? To separate out those who could stick it out and those who couldn’t? Satisfaction with quality… that would be a more accurate measure in my view.

A college degree simply means that you can be trained. This is a 'plus' for employers, therefore they give preference to such individuals.

Truth is most of these colleges (especially online colleges) are worthless, and should be abolished. There are still a few good schools out there where college graduates actually LEARN something, and become far more educated than most posting in this forum… (no offense, but come on people!)

I do have a degree, an Ivy League background, and a very expensive one. And I far exceed many people's education-level, especially at my current place of employment. I do, however, make an obscene amount of money!

EP's comment below is really an advertisement for college. Many people that do not have a degree are obsessed with proving that no degree is necessary. While I agree with EP's premise, I disagree with his/her approach. If these college graduates are so insignificant, why do you feel the need to denigrate them? A non-technical college degree is just a way for someone to validate his or her status with an employer. Doe that need to change? Yes.

Marty-

No, most countries do not let everyone go to college. In fact, England, Japan, and Germany- developed countries- sift out those my likely to succeed in their universities. Everyone else goes for the equivalent of technical training or an associate degree.

Egypt has a very high percentage of college students from the ranks of those who make through their educational system- and has not jobs or future to offer them. See biography, Mohammed Atta on wikipedia.

I don't have the college degree, but I can tell you a lot of these so called "college educated" workers are good for nothing. They are stupid and very lazy. I always laugh when someone tries to show off with their degree. I even make fun of them with management. I have been hired several times for positions requiring a degree. I beat out the college educated. I can walk out on a job and have another one in days without even trying hard. That's because I am very good at what I do and I can prove it to my potential employer. I transitioned through several professional careers without much effort. I always get the last laugh!!! A college degree doesn't make you a better employee. Hard work and commitment make you a good employee. I make more than most college educated people my age. I have several relatives and friends who never even finished high shcool and are multimillionaires.

cost of educations has tripled; the wages for the average job cut by 10% Food prices have doubled in the last year. Educate yourself for careers that dont exist. Be in debt to the gov school loan people for 35 years to pay back the smallest loan all while barely getting by.

Education is expensive, and it's getting VERY expensive. So, before heading off to college, you have to consider the objective:
– If you want to teach or research (or immigrate, for that matter), a Ph.D. is a very good thing to have
– If you want to be very well educated but without a thesis, a Master's degree is a great goal because it adds theoretical knowledge
– If you have lots of money, win a scholarship or desperately want a professional career (arts, engineering, language, science, teaching, etc.), a Bachelor's degree is a great goal
– If you don't need the above, there are great trade programs at the community level (construction, heavy equipment, medical, etc.) that lead to great-paying jobs that are extremely difficult to offshore and save you a LOT of money otherwise spent on education bills.

All I'm saying is 'think about it'.

The value of a college education is declining because the value of a public education in the US has declined. Dramatically. Garbage in, garbage out as they say.

I would be very concerned about a college with a graduation rate that is too high. I would question their standards and the quality of the graduates.

There is a difference between making a college education available to everyone and making sure everyone succeeds at it.

I graduated from the University of Phoenix while living in Las Vegas, NV in early 2005. I have a information technology background. Found it impossible to get an interview in Las vegas let alone any work because I had no real work experience. I moved to Phoenix maybe a week after I graduated in 2005 and started with my first job making eight dollars an hour. 4 years later and about 7 jobs later I was making twenty two dollars an hour. So I believe everyone is being a bit dramatic saying a college degree doesnt help. I will admit some of my positions I had high school graduates in my department. I actually worked for CVS and left them because I found the pay not to be very competitive and also when I went internally posting for their avail positions accross the country their hiring managers were sending my immediate managers emails instructing me not to apply for any more positions. What I havent stated in 2007 I had earned my MBA. So my take on the private sector is this they are so willing to promote white and asian women and of course the good old boys but they absolutely waste all the minorities they have in their business. I also was working for DHL about a year before they closed and I realized DHL had no employee development program. I was on the support floor and they were firing employees and or contractors giving completely "flaky" reasons. I left them after about 3 months because I felt a few people got fired and I would be next so I toook the CVS job. I just feel the private industry is doomed to repeat itself because the managers do not build up the existing employees they no succession plan and there attitude is more in line with linking there companies with partnerships such as all of these alphabet certifications versus having employees who understand the business in and out. I left CVS to go to a small compaany and they ran me out of there in less than 6 weeks and I'll tell you I have never been disrespected at the workplace that bad in my whole entire life and I'll tell you once upon a time I worked as a grocery store bagger and even there it was nowhere near as humiliating. I havent even interviewed with a company in over a year because I have been so frightened of just going off on one of these managers with no degrees and negative attitudes I have just been soul searching trying to start my own business. I have built some intellectual properties and will release to market in the next few months. I recently moved back to Las Vegas and I have a new lease on life. The same positions in Nevada are paying $60,000 annually. Education is great because its portable. I would never suggest not going for it. I personally think the training part is more positive the work part of it is extremely negative. Corporate America wants me to believe that with my education I am a mere laborer but the truth is life is a carousel and everybody has there turn. But then again since I have been out of the workplace the stock market has crashed and the private sectors have admitted that their way of doing business was not ethical. I think its not so much about bad education but each one of these companies from top to bottom need to have a ethical "stress test" to measure are their smallest employers being held back or have been in assignments too long. I dont see what the harm is if you ahd an employee in the mailroom five years and then you slowly remove everyone from the mail room to the administrative offices. All corporate America is doing is creating and pardon my french but idiots who can only perform one function. Overall I think its in the best interest of the company for them employees to be as well rounded as possible not giving them two percent raises and keeping their knowledge stagnated. No one can tell these managers anything and I am going to be honest from everything I learned in school I believe for the Americans who are going to college they may want to consider working abroad and its possible they will be able to come back to USA and retire at the age of 50. With nearly a third of the states having budget gaps and social security every day coming closer to ending I think students need to keep all their options on the table. A wise man told me to strengthen the areas you are weak in. I realize everyone is not cut out to be a database administrator such as myself but they have to find a industry that they "fit in". Because I realized early on I was different than the pack. How many MBA's you know who ride skateboards? I just am not like the rest of the executives but the things I like help me deal with stress and keeps my priorities in check. To me the workplace is more sacred than my place of worship. Education is never a bad thing it really only intimidates everyone else around you.

What this tells me is that high schools are not doing a good job preparing students for college. When I went to college I had to take HIGH SCHOOL math for 2 quarters to get up college level. Many students have to take high school math/english again at the college level….

The problem with using graduation rates is that much, but not all, of the difference in graduation rates between institutions reflects the characteristics of students who attend. Consumers need information on graduation rates of different types of students more than they need overall graduation rates.

I went back to college for a graduate degree at age 48. This was a major state university and even going to various offices in person, found information lacking. I wanted to know how many graduates had jobs in their major within 6 mo's of graduation, where such jobs were, average starting pay, etc. Not only was such infromation easily available, it did not exist, even at the undergraduate level. With a BA and an MEd. I have never had a job with either major and am now retired. My 4.0 GPA in graduate school is worthless.

Sean, Allendale, MI writes:
"there’s only one way to leave high school, and that’s to drop out."

Sean, say it ain't so. I'd been clinging to the hope that someone actually graduates now and then, even in this benighted day and age in America.

Psst. State U too expensive? How about, say, Ruprecht-Karls-Universität in Heibelberg, Germany? Why not? The tuition is only 604 Euros ($840.35) per semester. Check it out:

http://www.uni-heidelberg.de/studium/interesse/gebuehren/:
Since summer semester 2007, general study fees (read tuition) in the amount of 500.00 € per semester will be charged … The entire amount per semester thus amounts to 604.00 € ($840.35). [my translation]

All your kid has to do is get decent highschool grades, learn enough German to pass the TestDaF exam with minimum scores of 4 and he or she is in like Flynn.

No language ability? $25,000 – $1,680.69 = $23,319.31 per year say he or she has.

the poster below is absolutely right…we need to make higher education available to everybody not just rich people. in other countries (Advanced countries), anyone can go to college. If our country did a better job of balancing the budget instead of spending wastefully on defense and bailing out crappy companies, then maybe we would have money left over for education.

College is not and never should be foe everyone. 98% of the jobs in the world do not require any college degrees. American people have been duped into the college sinkhole for decades. It isn't true that a college education i worth anymore than specialized training. I went to college years ago and found the intruction in my Catholic high school to be far superior and detailed. I learned more in high school than college and the reason was the professors didn't care and mostly were foreigners who could speak broken English. I am now making over $200,000 per year and I never graduated college. As a matter of fact, I have found college graduates to be very lacking in knowledge of reading and writing as well as in social skills. The benefits of a college education is a myth!

This raises some good points and I am glad to see NSSE (National Survey for Student Engagement) mentioned, but fails to mention a few things. (1) Almost all colleges track graduation rates over 6 years. Like any statistic, it should be understood thoroughly. When a student decides to transfer to another institution, which does happen quite a bit, that student is counted in the "fail to graduate" category. As Stephens is a women's institution, and a small college offering limited majors, it is not out of the realm of possibilities that a young woman might decide to transfer out of a desire to attend a co-educational institution, or perhaps major in architecture, which is not offered at Stephens. Many schools have made strides in assessment. See the Assessment page at the University of Seattle, for example. In Herbert London's introduction to the 1993 reprint of Jacques Barzun's
"The American University: How it Runs, Where it is Going" London notes that "The college experience has gone from a rite of passage to a right of passage." I could not agree more.
The part of this partcular article that concerns me most is the leading sentence "When you start searching for the perfect college for your child…" Hold it right there, I say. What is the student's role in the process? As a college administrator who has unfortunately had the displeasure of reading admissions essays written by parents and convincing parents NOT to call employers for an explanation of why their son or daughter did not receive a job offer, I encourage parents to read "Letting Go: A Parents Guide to Understanding the College Years" by Coburn and Treeger.
Obtaining information about where college students go after graduation is no easy task. In my past experience, this is much more manageable for a small private liberal arts college with, say 600 graduates per year. The reality is that across the board, about 50% of college students have no solid plan at the time of graduation. True destination data is captured at the 6 month post-graduation period. This is a very time intensive and laborious project. How many of us want to take even a few minutes to fill out a survey, even it is for the benefit of our alma matter?
Lastly, the author of this article states that "it wouldn't be that hard to provide data about educational quality." I would suggest that the difficult part is getting colleges and universities to agree on a standard way to measure "educational quality." Take a look at "Measuring Up: The National Report Card of Higher Education"

I am a big supporter of education, but I have never subscribed to the idea colleges sell — that their programs "make" successful students.

I think motivated, hard-working individuals find a way to succeed regardless of the school they attended. Colleges are overrated this way (and overpriced IMO). Success seems to come from family culture (expectations of success, a track record of accomplishment, etc.), the student's temperament and the availability of opportunities in the marketplace.

As a college student myself, I want to ask the question — is it bad to have a student not graduate? I feel like if we label this statistic "bad," we forget about the positivity that can come from moving on in life. For instance, one of my friends fell in love with international politics, and decided to start going to school in Europe, so after transferring grades, she dropped out of her school here. She's included in the "didn't graduate" statistic. Same with the many people I see who really had no idea what they were getting themselves into, as far as career selection, and leave to try and find out what they want to do with their lives. Or, the people who turn internships into jobs and put their schooling on hiatus for six years. They'll be listed as dropouts.

I just feel it's dangerous to try and attach numbers to the college experience, because it is definitely not like high school — there's only one way to leave high school, and that's to drop out. As for college, there are so many paths that can be taken, and with this economy, who knows where you'll be day to day.

I agree that measuring graduation rates is a worthy statistic, provided the institutions' standards aren't lowered. If we could do that and handicap sports teams as a result, we'd have this problem fixed in no time (e.g. whatever your team scores times the school's graduation rate).

However, measuring college "success" based on job salaries is nuts. College is so much more than just getting a job out of school — how about people who graduate and go to grad school? How do you measure the success of entrepreneurs who grow assets rather than salaries? How do you measure the value of someone who becomes a teacher, head of an NGO, etc.? All very worthy results that we want as a society, but not necessarily the same as a sports star or celebrity.

It is perhaps discouraging to parents that they could end up paying $200k and have their children not get a degree, but it is the student's and parents' responsibility to take advantage of the opportunity that the tuition dollars purchase. Blindless pursuit of higher graduation rates will drive down the value of the degree as colleges assume the responsibility to graduate studnets rather than have students accept their responsibility to earn an education

Important questions for consumers to ask:
What percentage of faculty are tenured? What percentage of faculty are adjunct? Who teaches the general education classes? How big are these classes? Are they available? What is the average number of classses tenured faculty teach each semester/quarter? Is teaching more important than research in granting tenure to professors? What is the turnover rate of professors? What is the percentage of administrators to professors? Do administrators teach and are they tenured? Are student evaluations considered in granting tenure to professors? Are the 10 top professors known more for their teaching or their research? What percentage of students graduate in 4 years? 5 years? What is the drop out rate? What is the total cost of a 4 year degree if a student graduates in 4 years? Are students charged additional fees for tuition should they fail to graduate in 4 years?

no fooling. colleges have been trying to do the impossible for too long. with the push for everyone to go to college half of the kids who end up there should not be there if you consider what they did in high school. half the classes at some colleges are remedial to refresh what they should have learned in high school. grades have been dummied up to make it look like our kids are smart. most are not even average if you look 20 years back. and guess what? employers need kids with technical skills not history majors. no one majors in math physics or the foreign languages because they are too hard for below average, average and half of above average students today. quit lying America, we are declining as a country and going the way Rome did.

private colleges and universities are "businesses" for maximum profit at any cost, run by MBAs and marketing experts. don't like it that way? MAKE EDUCATION PUBLIC in the next opportunity.

How many graduates have full time employment in 4, 6, and 12 months after graduation in the field they majored or minored in?